Synthetic Oil Question

[ColdNose]

Hello again!

Anyone know of where one might find ISO 100 alkylbenzene oil without buying it by the barrel?

Seems to be a better choice than plain mineral oil in some applications:

• https://hvacrschool.com/refrigerant-oil-basics/

(Semi-synthetic alkylbenzene/mineral could be of interest, too.)

Would appreciate knowing where to get a retail quart or so to keep on-hand...

Thanks a bunch!

[Tom Greenleaf]

? IDK just what benefit you get? This with a quick search eBay might be what you want?

> https://www.ebay.com/itm/17580083458...Bk9SR-63_cfAYg <

That's $29.99 for 3, 8oz bottles. I do suggest sealing any of it if opened real well don't let air at it as it too probably absorbs moisture out of air like brake fluids do,

[Cornbinder89]

What are you working on? Mineral POE and PAG are the most common in automotive. (this is primarily an automotive site). I don't know what electric compressors in the Leaf or Prius use.
I go back with what the mfg recommends.
I have only seen Alkybenzene listed for large stationary units, not for mobile units.

[ColdNose]

Tom Greenleaf:
Thanks so much for scrabbling around for this: I saw the PAG stuff, too -- was looking for straight alkylbenzene or an alkylbenzene/mineral blend

Cornbinder89:
Just rummaging about for a non-polar/hygroscopic alternative to straight mineral oil for CFC apps

Was given to understand that alkylbenzene had superior lubricating properties; and thought it'd be a "cool" item to try in an older R12 system which I want to keep trouble-free for as long as possible.

We all know that the auto/truck industries don't make money when they're not selling parts and service...

Thanks again!

[Cornbinder89]

Be careful, there is more to consider. Stationary units generally don't have rubber hoses, they are braised copper. There may be an interaction between the oil and rubber, for the reason we don't see it in mobile A/C.
I have never encounter it in my work, but I am no expert.
Compressors are damaged fair more by lack of lube then wrong lube and even less by old lube.
If the system is kept tightly closed and a drier is used, there should be no moisture problem. Moisture comes from the system being open to the air, that is where evacuating and careful charging comes in. System that leak down and are boosted repeatedly rather than being fix will be at more risk.
I used the old A-6 compressors that haven't been produced for about 3 decades and it is rare to pull one apart and find a lube related problems. Most are 1) lack of lube 2) poor assembly.
I wouldn't try and reinvent the wheel when it comes to compressor oil.
The reason you might not find it in small containers may be that it isn't used at the small end user end of the market.
The three oils I mentioned have a good track record, and I would lean toward mineral for CFC's and PAG for HFC's with POE used in HFC retro fits where there is a question about how well the system has been drained of mineral oil.
I have very good results with PAG in my conversions, but I often am running new lines and condenser, so really only the evaporator to flush.

[ColdNose]

Cornbinder89:
Thanks for the insights! Always good to hear positive things like this.

Digressing briefly, I remember reading a TM from FAG decades ago which stressed the fact that rolling-element bearings generally never fail unless:

• contaminants are introduced, or
• nominal operating limits are exceeded, or
• the lubricant fails or runs out, or
• the assembly is incorrectly installed.

Of relevance, any sealed mechanical system has a fighting chance if things are kept clean, slippery, and dry

Back on-topic, I rummaged about and found NRI’s Refrigerant Reference Guide, 6th Edition.

As it turns out, elastomer compatibility seems not to be an issue; as mobile (automotive) R12 retrofits with R414b call out for mineral oil or alkylbenzene as preferred lubricants (see pg nos 7, 10, 48, and 87 in the Guide). The only comment of interest seems to be directly related to R414b itself -- noted is the need for special fittings and barrier hoses on page 87.

So, while alkylbenzene looks like it'd be a good fit for mobile applications, there doesn't seem to be any way of getting hold of the stuff without paying for a 100 years' supply (unless, perhaps, someone can get a deal in a dark alley )!

At any rate, it's been great to visit and share. Thanks again, and have a wonderful afternoon --

[Cornbinder89]

I did find some listed in 1 gal containers, I don't know if you have to buy in case lots or not but over $100/gal.

https://www.uri.com/refrigerants-and-chemicals/refrigeration-oils/alkylbenzene/

I would not go down that road. #1 CFC22 blends are likely outlawed by now, that was 2016, 2) there are problems with "glide" when mixes are used, and with the limited space in auto evaporators, there is little room to loose to the varying boil points of the mix. I must admit, I haven't looked into what is still legal and available.
I think dollar for dollar, the best money will be spent on maximizing a system on R134a, 1) is relatively cheap, 2) it is available everywhere. 3) there are few if any compatibility issues with present automotive systems.
Concentrate on the condenser, this is where the most gains for the buck can be had.

[ColdNose]

I did find some listed in 1 gal containers, I don't know if you have to buy in case lots or not but over $100/gal.

Sounds like where the price of gas will be heading soon if this one has a say in things

Returning to the overall topic, I see various viscosity grades being recommended for a compressor which I am currently looking at.

Specifically, the DKS-15BH seems to be set up from the factory with an ISO 100ish (mineral) oil fill -- but I have seen ISO 46 and 68 recommended in the marketplace as well.

My sensibilities tell me all three cannot be right: Is there something one should be aware of in the auto A/C sphere with respect to viscosity tolerances vs. compressor service life?

And, is a lower viscosity oil typically called for when changing over to a non-mineral based fill?

Thanks again for all the help

[Cornbinder89]

Well from what I read, in industrial, what temp the system operates forms the basis of what the recommendation is for the same compressor.
I only rebuilt A-6's and always used 150 in those. I have a Saab with a vane type compressor and can see where those might be picky as to viscosity.
If it came with ISO100 than that is what I'd use. Rebuilders may only stock one oil and put it in everything, but from their point of view it only has to make it to the end of warranty. Which may be why rebuild have such a poor rep.
I also thought of some more reasons to stick with 134a
You can't legally buy those "commercial refrigerants" with a 609 cert, you need 608, which may or may not be a barrier to you.
Also I don't believe they are sold in less than 30# kegs, so make experimenting with them costly unless you have some for other uses, or a buddy in the trade that can sell some out of their kegs.

[ColdNose]

If it came with ISO100 than that is what I'd use. Rebuilders may only stock one oil and put it in everything, but from their point of view it only has to make it to the end of warranty.

That's what I thought might be in play here. I come from an era where any such approach would've meant a dead-end for the player(s) in question...

Thanks again; and have a great day --

[Cusser]

Tom Greenleaf:
Was given to understand that alkylbenzene had superior lubricating properties; and thought it'd be a "cool" item to try in an older R12 system which I want to keep trouble-free for as long as possible.

I'm not a professional, but I don't think this is a good idea !

[Tom Greenleaf]

Where were we? If for an R-12 system use the mineral oils AKA on some list it as 'paraffin' still the same. It moves if a system can blow cold but all stop if not enough charge may still try to work. That's what kills compressors. I can't believe makers of systems want to suggest tricks if they really worked well would be the OE fill. Doesn't help a company to have a bad reputations for lousy A/C life.

Same for other OE refrigerant types.
If there's a prolonged period A/C isn't needed (where I am) in vehicles you can I unplug for myself low pressure cut out switches because I also do a lot of 3-4 mile at a time driving engine heat warms enough systems (many) kick on if using defog/defrost there's no ready oil IMO for the few seconds compressors kick on can't help them. Also lack of use is NG either so will allow a few times thru Winter from a hot shop them to run so lube circulates.

That works my cars are technically antiques (over 25 model years here) ALL are original A/C every part of the system.

I guess it works then! Can't with a 2007 is electric fanned quit if I do that so don't it still needs the fan to cool engine cold as it might get by shape of the thing. It's a Jeep OE asked if ordered a fan and fan clutch layout is fine fort that.

Other is reman compressors plain have a high failure rate if/when possible go new. That or pay a lot of attention for a while catch it before a failure if at all possible. Can't do that all the time like for a customer I don't see or hear them of course not my cars ask them to listen or did. 90% done with biz no time for it and too old car work is hard on the techs do slow down or change what they do usually,