Hello everyone just a quick question.. Here in AZ its been 95 to 100 degs each day and in the AM when starting the car the air is ice cold i mean 34 degs even lower coming out of the vents Low pressure pipe under hood is ice cold as well However after driving for a shot time the AC compressor cycles off warmer air then follows in the car-then 20 secs later back to ice cold.. I did a check on the freon level using a gauge and noticed the level was right on the border line of having to add some and good... Would Low freon cause this? The air is ice cold coming out of the vents for he first few miles then the compressor cycles almost like something is freezing... Thanks for any hlep!
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Kinda sound like it, BUT "I did a check on the freon level using a gauge and noticed the level was right on the border line of having to add" leaves me to think you are using pressure to determine charge amount, It is not possible to determine amount of charge by pressure, it can only tell the temp at the point the pressure is measured. It can be one indication that the charge is low, but can not tell if the charge is correct.
I am assuming this is a CCOT system , and the symptoms you describe would tend to indicate a low charge. If it is a Tx valve system I would tend to think that the frost switch may be set too cool, allowing the evaporator to freeze over and then gets too warm before the system cycles back on. -
IDK Cornbinder I think many Nissans use an expansion valve still it smacks of low refrigerant and icing part way they melts and works again despite probably low humidity will still do it.
arizonaman: How accurate is your vent temp reading? That's too cold. Just for laughs try this, put the car on fresh air vent full cold and see how much heat you get over real air temp probably 3-5F degrees just for passing thru the ducktwork so totally means the evaporator is below 32 and never should be but can either because of being low OR a problem with it staying on too long.
Hey I'm totally across the country from you it already hit 100F here for 20 minutes (don't laugh) and my own stuff I watch constantly with known accurate thermos all the time but chances are your road surface is smoking hot vs here not as much there's more shade and angle of sun a higher angle = more atmosphere to go thru isn't as strong.
You may have altitude too.
In short I really thing you are too low but the only way not to mess this up now is recover the charge with a machine that counts/weighs what came out vs exact spec for this. If not much and nobody touched it may be OK just fill to spec and all done for a few years?
It's working HARD if know original or thought to be this could be so slow hard to find but look anyway. I'd use a sniffer when there's the current charge first do determine how fast too engine off is fine. Look for oily evidence on all connections and behind compressor's clutch for oil too. Another is the condenser any could at any time worse where I am probably catch stone and broken pavement or rocks in the sand used for Winter even nickel size rock salt put t a hole you can see. I suppose if way too many bugs or assorted one could bust it too?
Those are the common things to me the condenser first for folks who highway drive when roads are treated for Winter is so common it not funny - cracks headlights and windshields too great for biz just don't follow those truck or tailgate!
Tom
MetroWest, BostonComment
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I wasn't questioning that is low, only that pressures can't be a firm guide as to amount. If it is a TX system, the Tx's job is to add just enough refrigerant such that it all boils by the time it leaves the evaporator , It doesn't have any control over iceing. I think you have a good check If the evaporator is getting cold enough to ice.
How good is the air flow, could a inlet filter be dirty or leafs, animal fur, and/or dust be restricting air flow?
If the temp of the refrigerant leaving the evaporator is cold, below freezing the pressure will also be low, as it reflects the temp of the refrigerant, not the state of charge. If not enough air flow over the evaporator to keep it above freezing, it could cause the frost switch to cycle, getting warm and cold.
If it was really low on refrigerant, the outlet of the evaporator would be warmer then the inlet. Ideally they should be about the same temp, you should see condensation on the low pressure line back to the compressor, but it shouldn't be iced over, an indication that there is liquid refrigerant still boiling in the line back to the compressor. A trace of frost is ok but not solid ice.Comment
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The general consensus is it is related to the evaporator temp sensor, which would be like a "frost" switch on an old mechanical set-up but now everything runs thru a "controller" and nothing as simple as a switch. I guess some of the problem in diagnosing, is the sensor doesn't go "out of range" and set a code, it just says the evaporator is cold and the controller shuts the system t down until the sensor says its warm, regardless of what is really happening
I must admit I am a little out of my league here, My area is older heavy trucks, which are all electro-mechanical and easy to test if a switch is bad or not.Comment
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Thank you everyone seems to be a real problem with these cars! I have 2 different temp sensors one is real accurate and it shows at 100 degs outside 37 to 42 deg air coming out of the vents while parked on the driveway! No dripping from unit Humidity here is 5% dry! As soon as i drive off 7 mins into my ride i start to feel the temp change to warmer then back to cold 15 seconds later and back and forth! I just did a quick bogus line check with a good gague i have here just to see what it read--Yellow was Low Green was good red too high--Simple to use gauge all you do is turn the dial to the current outside temp and the needle should be in the green which it was!!! Ac one Fan on max running for a good 7 minutes...Comment
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This is NOT a real way to check or estimate the refrigerant level. The only real way to KNOW the refrigerant level (R134a by the way, not freon on your 2013 Nissan) is for a shop to pull out the refrigerant and weigh it. If all your condenser fans are operating, I suggest to take to a shop (and not a Brake-O or Jiffy Lube either).
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Run, don't walk that's what we call a DEATH kit known for inaccuracy and unwanted junk, unknown oil CAN'T be used just for anything. YOU HAVE TO KNOW BY MEASURING OUNCES OF REFRIGERANT not some childish color chart but the sell like crazy to unwary people thinking A/C is a DIY game why pay is far from reality.
1st, ambient temp is only the air about 6" in front of the grille that is sucked thru the condenser not forecasts or a thermos on a building or the car's if equipped.
That's what the car's A/C knows not the forecast.
Everything about it is temp/pressure and what the system should do based on your request, blower speed and multiple speeds of fan(s) for condenser known working properly.
RPM of engine is valid sitting still help at about 1,500 then you can diagnose with temps and pressures but never know if all items work if correct for most situations unless you know to the ounce what's inside the system the rest is useful for diagnostics not how much is in it!
5% humidity is wildly dry almost unheard of 15-20 is nasty dry to people. Then there's dew points when it would condense to make water or sweat like just take a can of soda out of the fridge 5% at 42F (ave setting for a refrigerator) wouldn't mist or dampen a can understand that?
It's 79% RH where I am right now meaning 78F begins to make dew lower the more till a cold soda would soak a table type thing.
134a is not a forgiving refrigerant to be off by much in ounces of charge or this new enough computer controlled probably both switches and a thermistor is why so many wires to deal with.
Another is odd thing we don't think of much is the air dam under the bumper if you can call it that when moving forces air flow thru, down and out. Sitting still you are at a disadvantage heat may be coming backwards radiating towards front not the other way despite fans trying hard and should be.
Fans would also stop when high pressure drops when wind speed driving is adequate just saves them not needed over 45 MPH or so on most better air flow with them off than running depending on conditions the vehicle decides.
Sorry for the novel but step one if nothing obvious is knowing it has the correct charge since there is no dipstick for that you empty it, count what came out vs spec and charge back the correct amount then if not all wonderful time to find out why.
This problem at a glance smacks of a low charge boiling before done in evaporator with that humidity if real would just cool poorly doubt it could ice up.
FYI - if icing you can tell. Stop the vehicle when vent temp is wrong and shut system and engine off. A huge puddle of water would spill as the ice melts fast if drain was plugged it would wet passenger's floor. It's a bit new for some of this.
One more: If you have a cabin air filter you are increasing residence time air has flowing over evaporator but air speed/volume would be reduced all the time may have to look at those to know the condition if unsure and it has one.
Your kit is risking you serious bucks if just for lack of accuracy is imperative to be right or will tell you usually more it will work better just isn't the way it all works,Tom
MetroWest, BostonComment
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If you didn't open the link I posted, it seams a whole lot of people are having the same problem with a Rogue and whatever it is called elsewhere in the world. Exact same problem, cold then getting hot, Dealers can't find the problem or will not spend the time to find it (hard to blame them when they are not going to get paid for diagnosing only for repairing). Those that have some success in repairs all seam to point to the evaporator temp sensor or the evaporator box in general.
For right now I am willing to assume (and yes I know that is a weak point) that the charge level is not the problem, but the control system is mis reading the evaporator temp and turning off the compressor, or what ever the system is designed to do when it detects iceing temps at the evaporator
If I was going to "throw parts at it" I would start with the evaporator temp sender, but I am loathed to take that approach..Comment
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Hello all I am back with a question about our Rouge now that we have the correct amount of freon had it done at an ac shop.... Yesterday while driving in 98 degs here the air was on full cold no issues did alot of driving yesterday--- today however at 110 degs Humidity 5% ac was cold for about 10 miles and it became warm for a bit then returned back to cool.. Yesterday at 98 degs none of that happened? By what i just said do you think the freon level is a bit low or high ( I am taking to an ac guy near by) i just wanted to see for myself what you all thought.. Thanks..Comment
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I don't think amount is the problem, nor can it be determined by what you posted. I would assume if a competent shop did the recharge, the correct amount would have been added by weight.Comment
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To keep it simple.... Yes a low charge can cause your original symptoms.
I would have just added some at that point... Not with a death kit. Real gauges and pure 134A or whatever your vehicle uses.
You had it recharged properly by a shop. It was good for a day with lots of driving. Now it is getting bad again. You almost certainly have a leak, and a pretty fast one at that.
A good shop will be your best bet now.
DO NOT! DO NOT!! put anything in it with leak stop, sealer etc... Do this and the real fix will get many times more expensive.
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'dog,
don't think he has an amount problem, it seams to be a problem a lot of Nissan Rogue's are having, Low amount will not get cold, and may or may not cycle warm depending on system controls. When it works, it works well, until it doesn't. Having a 2nd shop check the amount can't hurt but I would be very surprised if the amount is the problem.
If it was low on refrigerant, it would all boil in the evaporator and not have enough to ice over, having absorbed all the heat it can, once it turns to gas, its ability to absorb heat is minimal. Tx systems will just have reduced output, orifice tubes will tend to cycle. Niether is the case as I read his posts. It gets cold, then warm, then cold. All points to a control problem. Tom believes that the Nissan uses a Tx valve, so that is what I am going with.
The general thought on other sites is the evaporator temp sensor is causing the system to cycle erroneously, not because the evaporator is icing, but as to why this is happening, and if it is the sensor or something else that is the route cause is still an open question.Comment
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Wild thought for when everything may seem right but is erratic? Said AZ with we know furnace heat sometimes and it's not really that old? I didn't look up TX vs CCOT system just noted most were TXV set ups capable of maximizing delivery of exact refrigerant by nature because of a bulb sensing temp controls flow. Now if the sealing goo can't take the heat it's being confused if that extreme just under the hood. Worth a look? IDK - I've found a product like removable caulking shapeable tolerate wild temp change almost can't burn the stuff with flames by "MoreTite" sold like a roll of spaghetti can shape like "Silly Putty" if you will does seal odd holes or leaks in things useful for many thing might do the trick if found leaking or a problem there. Just look if bad or feel air flow coming out I might try this stuff as you can always just remove it later.
Not meant for A/C specifically but use it - semi-sticky can hold a wire away from harm's way and other assorted uses is handy stuff. Just a thought,Tom
MetroWest, BostonComment
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The answer to this question will determine whether your problem is likely a leak, or a computer snafu.
When the AC shop recharged the system.... How much did they recover? If it was less that what is specified, then it leaked. If the leak was not found and fixed. then putting a proper amount of charge in will just be a short lived fix. Like your 1 day of good AC.
Now if the shop recovered pretty close to what is specified for your system, then the computer glitch could be the problem.
FWIW, my money is on a leak.
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This is why I don't think amount of refrigerant is the problem. It would not get that cold if it was low.
Reading about all that have had a problem, it seams that it is either a hardware ( evaporator temp sender) or software ( what the controller does with the input) causing the cycling to vacillate too far from the desired temp.Last edited by Cornbinder89; 06-06-2018, 08:45 PM.Comment
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I have a pilot light on my Blazer that lets me know when the compressor is engaged. When it is cool out, the compressor will not cycle at idle, and will show lower vent temps than when driving. when driving the compressor can achieve lower pressure and shut it off, then the vent temp rises until the upper set point is reached, and it pulls it down again. As the ambient temp rises, the cycling gets less and less. Around 95 degrees, it runs all the time. If my charge was low, then it would continue to cycle at higher temps and give poor performance. What is interesting is that at the point when the ambient temps are barely high enough to keep the compressor on, is when my AC is the coldest.
This is why I think he has a leak. He stated that performance was good for a day or so after had had it recharged. Either the computer /hardware glitch took a day off, or he has a leak.
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Just don't compare this to a GM product. Lights on some can be out and things still work or not. 2013 - this is more computer controlled than it's going to allow you to know without paid dealer side code info even if warnings are not on. From me the end answer is it just make take going to a Nissan dealer or contact one with the info as you know it why it isn't working. The standard response will be go there and let them check it all out for TSBs if any or contact reps that help dealers if they too find everything is in order but it isn't working properly.
It may or may not be under an extended warranty they don't really want you to know about. The more messing around in it's history that they find out the easier it will be for even them to blow you off and isn't their problem.
Hey - now page two on this threads get longer too it gets harder to read every detail of even this thread what's been ruled in or out for sure.
So far we haven't fixed it with a magic crystal ball nor others with it in person maybe time to dig deeper at a dealer till you get some manufacturer current to the moment info how it can misbehave in this manner and if they'll admit it's a known problem and take care of it. Your call,Tom
MetroWest, BostonComment
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'Dog
As Tom states, your GM system is different than most imports. The CCOT system is generally a "Big three" (North American brand) system that most imports don't use. On a CCOT that is low of refrigerant, you are correct, it will cycle more, but that doesn't hold true for all system types.
I had a few minutes and I like a challenge, so I looked thru some on-line catalogs on the Nissan Rogue and found that it uses a block type expansion valve and a clutch on the compressor. I feared it might be one of the clutchless designed compressors which would open up another whole ball of wax to deal with.
It would be helpful to know if when it starts blowing warm, if the clutch is engaged or not ? may be hard to tell, if it only happens at speed, but if you hear a "click" and feel some change in engine load, that would be a good indication.
There is a air intake filter on this car, and it would be worth checking or replacing, as reduced airflow across the evaporator could cause it to frost.
There also seams to be an "ambient air temp sensor" which may help control when the compressor runs, I found one in the online catalog and it was mentioned by one of the posters on the link I posted back on page one.
The same online catalog list a "pressure transducer" and a "pressure switch" by two different mfg, so it is hard to tell if they are calling the same item two different things, or if they are truely different.
If I am not mistaken, I believe on this car, you set the temp you want, and the "controller" does the rest, no? if so it is another whole "system" to go wrong, that could be unrelated to the actual A/C system itself, in that the mechanics of the A/C system can be fine, but the control board is turning it off for some erroneous reason.
The ambient air sensor and the pressure transducer are not that expensive if you want to try and throw parts at it. Otherwise I think you need to sit down with the dealer service mgr and say that not fixing is not acceptable. The problem in automotive service depts is the mechanic's are paid for replacing parts not for diagnosis, that works fine with a leaking waterpump, where the problem is obvious, but not so well if he has to spend a few hrs with the car until it malfunctions. Good dealerships will have a foreman or mfg on salary who is experienced, who can put in the time to solve the hard problems, At least this is how it is supposed to work. It is hard to get a guy to put in the time, if the "book rate" is going to only pay 15 min on something it took hrs to solve,
Check the connections to the switches/sensors also if they are corroded, the resistance goes up and the controlboard "sees" that is reading something other than what is happening.
Good luck and let us know what you find. .Comment
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