Evens Tempcon system in F53 Ford based motorhome.Don't know where to go from here

[RalphARoni]

I have a Coachmen 2002 Mirada in a 2001 F53 ford chassis. The dashboard air is not working. It is an Evans Tempcon "3 dial" system with a Ford compressor. Not sure how to proceed.

Symptom: When set to MAX with the blower in 1 it blows warm air. The compressor clutch does not engage.

What I have checked: I have verified 12v from the switches to the pressure switch. The pressure switch is open.Several times it engaged the clutch momentarily then it opened and stopped it. I have checked the thermostat and it is open at ambient temp 89f. It is possible that the thermostat stopped the system from working when it quit.
I connected the clutch to 12v at the pressure switch harness and it does come on.
I have connected a manifold and got the readings of 100 on both sides without the compressor running and 5 low and 110 high with the compressor on.
When the clutch ir engaged manually there is no difference in the temperature of the at at the vents.
While learning to use the manifold (sort of) I inadvertantly opened the valves and noticed that the fluid was a tan color. I don't know if this is oil or contamination.

History: About a year ago I lost all fluid because the low pressure hose was cut by the edge of the radiator. Bad routing from the factory. I repaired the hose. I could not replace it because the bolt holding the tube to the compressor had frozen solidly to the tube. I also replaced the drier with a generic replacement. I drew a vacuum of 29 and left it for several hours to check leaks and then ran it to evaporate water. I filled it with 2.5 lbs of 134 and it worked great for an entire year including 6 weeks out west and a 2 week evacuation from Irma in Georgia. It sat for a month then when I tried to use it it did not work and had been sitting ever since. I did try some stupid things. I released some fluid. What was I thinking? I tried adding 12 oz to replace that.

Present: I do not know how much R134 there is in it now or if it might have leaked somewhat over time. It has been suggested that I may have a leaking drier or a worn out compressor. I did finally find the label with the system information which was up on the evaperator housing. It takes 2.75 lbs rather than the 2.5 that I had found in online specs.
1 Is that brown color a problem or just compressor oil?
2 Should I try having it emptied then refilling it correctly and trying again or should I assume the compressor is toast and replace it right away.
3 Do I need to flush it? Since a lot of the fittings are frozen that would be rough to do properly.
4 How much oil will I need to add if I refill it with the same compressor but a new drier?

I have a new drier on order along with plain R134. I have compressor oil. I have ordered the thermostat. Anything else I need?

I really appreciate anything you can tell me. I am learning but this is out of my comfort zone. I am mechanically able to handle most things but AC is not simple.

[Cornbinder89]

I'd say the compressor is ok, the system is too low to function. If it were me, I would pull the compressor and drain the oil, flush out the old oil with a flush gun, re fil the compressor with fresh oil to spec and do a complete recharge by weight (2.75 lbs). Hard to say on the brown, oil has kind of a tan color to it sometimes, other times it is dyed different colors. The stuff I just put in was blueish in color.
It depends on what tooling you have to hand and how much you want to do. When I get a fitting that will not come apart, I use a hacksaw to slit the nut and replace the bad fitting by slitting the crimp farrell so I don't shorten the hose.
When the hose blew, you likely lost some oil as well, for the compressor to any chance it needs the correct amount in the system, that is why I suggest that you remove, drain and re-fill.
The compressor is not on because the system is almost empty and the safety is keeping the compressor off to prevent it from burning up running with no oil in in.

[RalphARoni]

I'd say the compressor is ok, the system is too low to function. If it were me, I would pull the compressor and drain the oil, flush out the old oil with a flush gun, re fil the compressor with fresh oil to spec and do a complete recharge by weight (2.75 lbs). Hard to say on the brown, oil has kind of a tan color to it sometimes, other times it is dyed different colors. The stuff I just put in was blueish in color.
It depends on what tooling you have to hand and how much you want to do. When I get a fitting that will not come apart, I use a hacksaw to slit the nut and replace the bad fitting by slitting the crimp farrell so I don't shorten the hose.
When the hose blew, you likely lost some oil as well, for the compressor to any chance it needs the correct amount in the system, that is why I suggest that you remove, drain and re-fill.
The compressor is not on because the system is almost empty and the safety is keeping the compressor off to prevent it from burning up running with no oil in in.

Thanks. I have quite a few tools (none for replacing hose ends though).I have a flush gun. I'll remove the refrigerant and go underneath and see if I can remove the compressor. Working with the serpentine belt on that engine in it's insanely confined space is rough but if I can drop it I will. If I cannot get the low side hose off can I get the oil out through the high side alone? Should I flush or blow out the system just to be safe?
Thanks

[Cornbinder89]

Likely you will need to get the compressor off the vehicle and on the bench to drain and refill. You could use a flush with the lines off the compressor, although I have limited faith in how much good can be done with flushes. It will at least show that the lines are clear.
Getting the right amount of fresh oil is critical for the compressor, once that has been done, We can look for other problems. No sense spending the money on a new compressor if this one will still move refrigerant and if there turn out to be other problems once the system is back together, better not to find out by ruining a brand new compressor!
A/C work can be very expensive to do. The tools required to be able to deal with things that are stuck or broken can run into the $1000's A crimper or replacing line with burgclip lines and fittings is an almost necessity. sooner rather than later, you are going to run into a fitting that will not come apart or not in a reusable manor. Being able to make new is almost a necessity. Gauges, manifold fittings and vacuum pump and scale are just the start of it all. Tools to remove a stuck orifice and the list goes on. At some point you have to decide how much is too much and when to pay someone else and end up paying less than outfitting yourself.
I do three heavy trucks and they are more or less all "custom jobs" made up from available parts, one is mostly Red Dot, the other two are IHC in the "heater box" and custom outside.
Waiting a week or more for some fitting or part can be frustrating to say the least, I stock many fittings but always seam to need something I don't have, or ran out of. I stock hose, and have a bubble crimper, but still need stuff.
Most newer stuff has "proprietary" fittings somewhere, either at the drier or compressor, and while they may be available, they may not be in Burgclip and you need a crimper to replace.
Where all this is leading:
With the correct oil charge in the compressor, I would put it back up, evacuate the system and put a fresh charge in by weight. Orifice tube systems are much more critical of amount of charge than Tx valve system. Don't count on the weight of small cans to be accurate, a good scale can help here. If when all is said and done, it still doesn't work, your not out a lot of money and you can decide whether to go further, or take it to someone.
Without the correct charge and oil in the compressor it is hard to know what else might be wrong if anything. Obviously there has been leakage and that needs to be addressed. It can be hard to find if low, and you might want to consider adding dye to the charge to help in the future if it leaks down again.
Edit:
When on the bench, check the clutch gap, as it is much easyer to deal with on the bench then on the truck.

[RalphARoni]

Likely you will need to get the compressor off the vehicle and on the bench to drain and refill.
With the correct oil charge in the compressor, I would put it back up, evacuate the system and put a fresh charge in by weight. Orifice tube systems are much more critical of amount of charge than Tx valve system. Don't count on the weight of small cans to be accurate, a good scale can help here. If when all is said and done, it still doesn't work, your not out a lot of money and you can decide whether to go further, or take it to someone.
Without the correct charge and oil in the compressor it is hard to know what else might be wrong if anything. Obviously there has been leakage and that needs to be addressed. It can be hard to find if low, and you might want to consider adding dye to the charge to help in the future if it leaks down again.
Edit:
When on the bench, check the clutch gap, as it is much easyer to deal with on the bench then on the truck.

OK... I did get it off. I will add the correct oil and also the amount needed to correct for replacement of the drier. I have the dye also and will add it just in case. The Gap is good. Thanks for that hint. I had to cut the low pressure hose to get the compressor off. The other end goes to the expansion valve. The threaded fitting is stuck in the expansion valve. I have been adding penetrating oil of several types for a month or so. I use a 1" wrench to hold the valve and a 7/16 open end to try to move it and I will be trying with a brake wrench tonight but I am not optimistic. I have to get that off to have a new hose made. Any suggestions?
The valve is covered in black goo like asphalt. Can I replace that with undercoating?

[Tom Greenleaf]

Quote Ralph ">The valve is covered in black goo like asphalt. Can I replace that with undercoating?<" No. There's stuff for that just ask for it. Not supposed to melt. If that much trouble to find can use "Mortite - Removable Caulking" a hardware store item can barely burn it with a torch, Semi sticky in a roll like spaghetti for home windows but very tolerant stuff. If you didn't like it remove it good for all sorts of silly things. Pic look like this boxed but bet will not show Comcast still screwed up,

[Cornbinder89]

Depending on how long the steel (I think it is steel, cause I thing I see a bit of rust) line is, you might be better off cutting the steel line and using a flare union. They make compression to A/C line fittings but I don't trust a compression fitting for a long term solution. You'll need a flaring kit and a long (flare) nut plus a flare union and a female flare fitting, or you could go with a male flare hose end, either way will work
A Flare nut wrench might break the fitting loose, but it really takes two people so as not to put stress on the Tx valve and the evaporator. You don't want to fix one problem only to make another fixing the 1st! It is why I look to "alternative solutions" like cutting the steel line where I can get at it with a tubing cutter and a flaring tool.
If you do get the fitting loose, put a little refrigeration oil on the threads before re installing.
With 3 or more hands, you can have one guy support the Tx valve and hold it steady with a wrench, while the other guy trys with flare nut wrench while putting a little pressure on the tube in the same direction as the nut is turning
Last and most drastic measure, you cut the steel line flush with the nut and use a 6 point "impact" socket to get the nut out. The problem with this method is, if you are unsuccessful you have to get the Tx valve off the evaporator and change it, so 3 more fitting just like the one you are struggling with have to break free without damage.
Ain't life grand?

[RalphARoni]

A Flare nut wrench might break the fitting loose, but it really takes two people so as not to put stress on the Tx valve and the evaporator. You don't want to fix one problem only to make another fixing the 1st! It is why I look to "alternative solutions" like cutting the steel line where I can get at it with a tubing cutter and a flaring tool.

If you do get the fitting loose, put a little refrigeration oil on the threads before re installing.
With 3 or more hands, you can have one guy support the Tx valve and hold it steady with a wrench, while the other guy trys with flare nut wrench while putting a little pressure on the tube in the same direction as the nut is turning
Last and most drastic measure, you cut the steel line flush with the nut and use a 6 point "impact" socket to get the nut out. The problem with this method is, if you are unsuccessful you have to get the Tx valve off the evaporator and change it, so 3 more fitting just like the one you are struggling with have to break free without damage.
Ain't life grand?

Will try three hands today
My thoughts exactly on those three other fittings
Life sure is

[RalphARoni]

With your help I am making progress.
-Got the fitting loose with the three hand method and Seafoam penetration oil.
-The thermostat. arrived and I will put it in today (RV willing).
-I have a new drier.
-I am taking the hose to NAPA this morning. They say they make AC hoses.This has an odd flare and an o ring both so I hope they can. I found one online but it is expensive and I have no way to be sure it is the right one. Numbers are gone on old one. (see attached.)
-Compressor is out (had to cut low pressure hose) and I removed just under three ounces of oil total from the oil hole and t fittings.The low pressure hose had about 2 oz that came out when I cut it.
-Information on what compressor I have and how much oil to use is hard to find. Ford has no info. Sanden does not list 2001.Information on the compressor is covered by undercoat spray though I can see some numbers. Best I can tell looks like they take PAG 46. Looks like the system takes 7oz. Was more added with freon? Would I be out of line to replace the 3 from the compressor, 1/2 for the hose, 1 for the drier total 4 1/2? Put three back in the compressor drain hole and the rest in the charging hose with some UV dye after vacuum testing and drying out?
-There is an expansion valve. Can I assume that there is no orifice because of that? I don't see one but Owens Tempcon offers one.

Thanks for the help and sorry about all of the questions but I need to get this right. Can't afford to blow it up!

[Cornbinder89]

If it were me, and I was sure I got as much as possible out of the compressor, I would go back with the full 7 oz of oil. An oz or 2 over as a lot better than not enough.an Empty New drier will take care of any that was in the old drier, so go with the full 7 oz
Most Sanden take SP-15 PAG but if the label says PAG 46 then that is what I'd use.
Blew up the pic of the tag and it says SP-20 for oil, SP-15 replaces and superseded SP-20

[RalphARoni]

If it were me, and I was sure I got as much as possible out of the compressor, I would go back with the full 7 oz of oil. An oz or 2 over as a lot better than not enough.an Empty New drier will take care of any that was in the old drier, so go with the full 7 oz
Most Sanden take SP-15 PAG but if the label says PAG 46 then that is what I'd use.
Blew up the pic of the tag and it says SP-20 for oil, SP-15 replaces and superseded SP-20

Thanks. You have good eyes. I tried that and still could not see it. I found that the Sanded standard SP 20 is PAG 100 and I have some already. Good. It may be a while until I get the hose. I am trying to have it made but don't know if it is possible here. If I have to order it may take a while. I will return though and I have plenty to keep me occupied reinstalling the compressor and the evaporator housing with the new thermostat. Blew out the housing and coils while keeping a shop vac on the vent. Didn't get much crud. Good.

[RalphARoni]

Please don't go away! I am waiting while someone tries to make sure I am looking at the right hose from Evans (who closed for the week) and see if they have one. I also have a local shop trying hard not to decide if they can make a new one. Why do some people in the service industry treat customers like an annoyance? I don't get it.

[Cornbinder89]

Don't worry I check the forums once a day at least, when I can.

[RalphARoni]

Got someone local who says he can have that hose made up and ready in a "couple of days" so I will see. Haven't heard back from Tempcon so I guess I'll go local. We shal see.

[Cornbinder89]

I tried to do my own without the ability to make hoses, and found it just isn't practical. If your going to do much A/C work a hose crimper is almost as important as a vacuum pump and gauges. Then you'll find you don't have the right fitting and start stocking more and more fittings, and before you know it you have serious money tied up in refrigeration stuff. If you dabble in off brand or low production stuff, you almost have to have all the hose and fittings or you will not be able to do much.
As you found, some of these low production stuff the OEM isn't concerned about fixing their old stuff, it is all about selling new, and the consumer is left with few places to turn for help.

[RalphARoni]

I agree and there is no way I will buy a crimper for 3/4" hose fittings for just this one hos. Still havent heard back from Tempcon so I don't even know which hose to order. The local aoti AC company says they can get the odd dual flare and o ring end fittings from Miami and crimp the hoses to them for less than Tempcon supplies the hose. Then I at least know it is the right one. Since this is the Keys it will be ready soon, soon, couple days, any day... It will happen.
I have plenty to do in the meanwhile. Just finished replacing the condenser, drier and evaporator in my wife's Honda Civic. Evacuated and filled. Works great. I found the cause of the mysterious cough that she has had for years. The inside of the evaporator compartment was horribly mildewed and moldy. I suspect some liquid got in there before we got it and then the slow leak added to it. While the AC was out of commission she used my car and not it has all been cleaned out. The cough stopped and has not returned.

[RalphARoni]

Still waiting. Parts have last been seen in Texas but are headed this way. Might even have the hose tomorrow. Might. Never know.

[RalphARoni]

Got the hose yesterday late and installed it along with the new, sealed drier. I evacuated the system and kept the pump on for three hours. I added the remaining 4oz compressor oil and 2 oz of dye and 42oz by weight of the recommended 44oz of 134a. That leaves me 2oz low. I can get a small can later to complete the fill. Here are the pressures after adding at 85f and 80% humidity. Gage picture attached. At 40 the low side seems a little high while the 140 on the high side seems low. The air coming out is cold but not as cold as I expect. I will get a temp as soon as I find my thermometer. Do you think I have a compressor problem? I wouldn't think 2 oz would cause that low a high reading. The air was always less cold at idle.

Added- The compressor clutch did engage continue to run. The readings were with the compressor running. Inside the RV the temperature was around 120f
Added- I saw this: "Of all the bad expansion valves seen over the years, I think those that stick closed are most common. Those are the easy ones. Gauges will show very low suction side pressure along with lower than normal high side pressure. The low side may even draw into a vacuum. That's a big clue. Those that appear to be stuck closed may have inlet screens clogged with ground up desiccant particles. This will look like beach sand packed into the inlet." I did have some sandy looking material in the high side of the expansion valve when I removed the high side tube. It was only a small amount and was not inside but in the threads of the fitting. My readings seem too close to normal to be a stuck valve though.

[Tom Greenleaf]

Copy of "unapproved" post and IDK why?
This is it again>
Got the hose yesterday late and installed it along with the new, sealed drier. I evacuated the system and kept the pump on for three hours. I added the remaining 4oz compressor oil and 2 oz of dye and 42oz by weight of the recommended 44oz of 134a. That leaves me 2oz low. I can get a small can later to complete the fill. Here are the pressures after adding at 85f and 80% humidity. Gage picture attached. At 40 the low side seems a little high while the 140 on the high side seems low. The air coming out is cold but not as cold as I expect. I will get a temp as soon as I find my thermometer. Do you think I have a compressor problem? I wouldn't think 2 oz would cause that low a high reading. The air was always less cold at idle.

Added- The compressor clutch did engage continue to run. The readings were with the compressor running. Inside the RV the temperature was around 120f
Added- I saw this: "Of all the bad expansion valves seen over the years, I think those that stick closed are most common. Those are the easy ones. Gauges will show very low suction side pressure along with lower than normal high side pressure. The low side may even draw into a vacuum. That's a big clue. Those that appear to be stuck closed may have inlet screens clogged with ground up desiccant particles. This will look like beach sand packed into the inlet." I did have some sandy looking material in the high side of the expansion valve when I removed the high side tube. It was only a small amount and was not inside but in the threads of the fitting. My readings seem too close to normal to be a stuck valve though.

[Cornbinder89]

I'm seeing 40 and 240, not 140. 240 seams reasonable to me.
40 on the low side isn't bad if the evaporator truly is seeing 120 deg heat.